From: force10ten@some.where.com (Force10Ten)
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 14 Jan 1996 02:03:01 -0500
Reply-To: force10ten@some.where.com (Force10Ten)

Because I'm looking for binoculars for use at the Olympic Games, I just
spent quite a bit of time talking about this very subject with Jim
Dougherty, Dave Myers, Jay Barrs and Dick Tone, all of whom have the
opinion that the really good binoculars show their stuff in twilight.  
Myers told me this story at the Bowhunting Trade Show.

He and his buddies were sheep hunting.   There were 5 or 6 guys.  One of
them told the others "there's a sheep in this hollow" several hundred
yards off.  It was dusk.   Nobody but this guy could see the sheep. 
Everybody had binoculars in the 100-300 dollar price range.  Except this
guy who had a set of Zeiss 10 x 50's.   As he passed the glasses around
every one of these guys could see the sheep perfectly clearly.   Nobody
could see it with the cheaper glasses.   

I chose a pair of Leica 10 x 42's for my task at the Olympics, which will
be to do TV and venue play by play coverage of archery.  I need to be able
to call the arrows in the head-to-head instantly.   These glasses are
perfect for the job, which will really involve several weeks of looking
through binoculars this year, what with test tournaments and my own
shooting.

My "A" list after shopping around is in the 700 to 1600 dollar price range
as follows:

1.  Leica 10 x 42
2.  Bausch & Lomb Elite 10 x 42
3.  Zeiss 10 x 42
4.  Svarovski
5.  Docter Optik

george t.

From: bowbuff@some.where.com (Bowbuff)
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 16 Jan 1996 06:37:05 -0500

Randy, just reread your question and it may be that the answers you
received didn't answer your question about 8 vs 10 power in low light. 
Considering magnification alone the higher the power the worse it is
likely to be in very low light.  More important is the "exit pupil" of the
binocs:   The second number divided by the first.  
For example a 10x50 binoc has an exit pupil of 5, the same as a 7x35 or
8x40.  This is the measure of light gathering ability of the unit. 
Ignoring power, quality of the optical elements, and lens coatings, an
e.p. of 5 is the optimum.  At least, I read somewhere that this is the
maximum the human eye can process.   All I know is that a top quality pair
of 10x50, 8x40, or 7x35 glasses will pick up more light at dark than you
can see with your naked eyes.  Seriously, I was watching two bull elk
fighting at dark in Rocky Mtn Nat'l Park and it became too dark to see
them although they were in the open only 75 yards away.  With my
Swarovskis I could watch them for about another half hour when I got tired
and gave up.  The higher the e.p. the larger the binocs are physically, of
course, as this means a bigger diameter exit lens and focal length as
well.

The lower the e.p., the worse your binocs will let you down in low light. 
This is why all the compacts are only useful during good light.  The
finest 8x24s or 10x25s will fit in your shirt pocket really neat....and
you'll soon be leaving them there unless it is the middle of the day...or
unless you really don't need to see very much.  

Optics and coatings are no less important for extended use, especially at
very long ranges in the daylight.  Unfortunately you cant sort this out by
looking through them in a store or looking down the street in front of a
store.  The best way is to take them-and all the others you can beg, bum,
or borrow out to the tallest mountain you know and compare them for hours,
especially as it gets dark.  The next best way is to follow the advice of
the Rocky Mountain Bighorn Society:  figure out what is the maximum you
can spend on the finest optics - and then spend 25% more!

Good Luck!

From: abqkelly@some.where.netcom.com(John Kelly )
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Warsaw Pact Binocs
Date: 16 Jan 1996 16:52:11 GMT

>Optics and coatings are no less important for extended use, especially
at
>very long ranges in the daylight.  Unfortunately you cant sort this
out by
>looking through them in a store or looking down the street in front of
a
>store.  

I had an opportunity to compare Leica, Swarkkkovyjowskiiskiskzsky,
Zeiss, and "Warsaw Pact" 8X50s last year at a Rockey Mt Elk Camp event.
You CAN make certain interesting and useful appraisals in that sort of
situation. For example, you can evaluate color and contrast. You can
look right into backlit areas, right at objects next to bright lights
in the trade show ceiling, and judge internal refraction, contrast, and
glare. IMHO the Leicas "looked" prettiest overall, I'd have loved a
pair, were I a successful cocaine dealer or Phil Gramm. 

But a bowhunting pal bought WARSAW PACT "cheapies" ($500..widely
advertised in hunting magazines) there, since they were MUCH brighter
(apparently the equivalent of maybe two f-stops) and more contrasty
than ANY of the others (not to mention, ahem, AFFORDABLE). They were
VASTLY SUPERIOR in those respects. 

In the woods I later found you can look into deep shadows and they are
lit as if they were video amplified. You can look directly into scenes
involving the setting sun and still see clearly, FAR better than with
the naked eye. 

There IS one BIG drawback: everything is a sickly greenish orange or
yellow. The damned things are color blind. Otherwise they are
exceptional at picking out shapes, movement etc under extremely
difficult lighting conditions. That is exactly what they were designed
for, of course, being military equipment, not bird watching equipment.
NOTHING looks pretty through them. Is that a sacrifice that makes
sense? Hmmm. Maybe that depends on your reasons for hunting. 

I've got Pentax and Nikon, under $200ea, and they have to fill the bill
for now. I'm waiting for money from heaven. Maybe I'll go for better
Nikons.

JK

From: Perry Ratcliff <ratcliff@some.where.trw.com>
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 07:36:28 PDT

> I plan on purchasing a new pair of binoculars next hunting season and 
> would like some help.  Let me know what you like or dislike.  Also can 
> anyone tell what difference I might expect between an 8X and 10X 
> binocular.  How does light conditions affect either one?
> 
I also have Swarovskis 10x50 but haven't used them for a couple of 
years because they are so heavy.  I'm now using Pentax 12x42 
binoculars and am extremely pleased with them.  They are very light
for the size and have good light gathering capabilities.  They are
nitrogen filled and have never fogged up on me.  I believe they cost
me around $300 and feel that they are an outstanding value.

If you are on a more modest budget there are some very good 
compact binoculars in the $150 range.  Make sure that they are
nitrogen filled to prevent fogging in the rain.  If you wear
glasses make certain that the binoculars have a long eye relief
or you will lose a lot of light through the binoculars.

Good Luck,

Perry

From: ap941@some.where.ysu.edu (Mark W. Thurm)
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 16 Jan 1996 17:07:13 GMT
Reply-To: ap941@some.where.ysu.edu (Mark W. Thurm)

>I plan on purchasing a new pair of binoculars next hunting season and 
>would like some help.  Let me know what you like or dislike.  Also can 
>anyone tell what difference I might expect between an 8X and 10X 
>binocular.  How does light conditions affect either one?

 
 I have a pair of Cabellas compacts, 8 power, nitrogen filled, long
eye relief. For the money ($100) they're a good deal (IMHO). I've
looked at Ziess, Swarvoski. Brunton, etc. and they were excellent
but with my constrants (married with children) my wife wouldn't
authorize er... I couldn't justfy the 6-10 times price diferential.

 A 10 power compact will not gather much light and will be harder to hold
steady. I hunt in the west and the 8x has worked well fo me.

MT

-- 
   
            It's not the bible that's filled with contradictions,
                 It's our brains that are filled with them.
                             J. Vernon McGee

Newsgroups: alt.archery
From: jwf20@some.where.ccc.amdahl.com (Jim Flenniken)
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:14:09 GMT

Randy Ross <randyr@some.where.com> wrote:

>I plan on purchasing a new pair of binoculars next hunting season and 
>would like some help.  Let me know what you like or dislike.  Also can 
>anyone tell what difference I might expect between an 8X and 10X 
>binocular.  How does light conditions affect either one?

>Thanks.

>Randy

Bushnell makes a pair of 'glasses on' binoculars that are _excellent_
for those of us that wear glasses. the long eye-relief is a blessing
when scanning a field while wearing glasses and the price is about
$125. 

From: Alex Hoover <alexh>
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 16 Jan 1996 22:17:34 GMT

I love my Pentax 10x24 UCF compact binocs.  Small and lightweight, so I don't
hesitate to take them everywhere.  They are with me 100% of the time that I
hunt.  Bigger binocs are nicer, but can get in the way (especially if primary
use will be while bowhunting).

In the Fall 95 issue of the Gander Mountain catalog, the 10x cost $155, the 8x
cost $140.

There's some kind of formula about exit pupil that give guidelines on best
magnification power.  The gist is that unless you have a very large objective
diameter (for the 10x24's, the objective is 24mm, which is relatively small),
light will be transmitted bettter with a lower magnification.  If I had it to
do over, I would buy the Pentax compact binocs again, but I would get an 8x24
instead of 10x24.  

Regards,
alex.hoover@some.where.com
Denver, CO

From: Alex Hoover <alexh>
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 16 Jan 1996 22:18:10 GMT

I love my Pentax 10x24 UCF compact binocs.  Small and lightweight, so I don't
hesitate to take them everywhere.  They are with me 100% of the time that I
hunt.  Bigger binocs are nicer, but can get in the way (especially if primary
use will be while bowhunting).

In the Fall 95 issue of the Gander Mountain catalog, the 10x cost $155, the 8x
cost $140.

There's some kind of formula about exit pupil that give guidelines on best
magnification power.  The gist is that unless you have a very large objective
diameter (for the 10x24's, the objective is 24mm, which is relatively small),
light will be transmitted bettter with a lower magnification.  If I had it to
do over, I would buy the Pentax compact binocs again, but I would get an 8x24
instead of 10x24.  

Regards,
alex.hoover@some.where.com
Denver, CO

From: Alex Hoover <alexh>
Newsgroups: alt.archery
Subject: Re: Binocular Purchase - Advice
Date: 16 Jan 1996 22:18:19 GMT

I love my Pentax 10x24 UCF compact binocs.  Small and lightweight, so I don't
hesitate to take them everywhere.  They are with me 100% of the time that I
hunt.  Bigger binocs are nicer, but can get in the way (especially if primary
use will be while bowhunting).

In the Fall 95 issue of the Gander Mountain catalog, the 10x cost $155, the 8x
cost $140.

There's some kind of formula about exit pupil that give guidelines on best
magnification power.  The gist is that unless you have a very large objective
diameter (for the 10x24's, the objective is 24mm, which is relatively small),
light will be transmitted bettter with a lower magnification.  If I had it to
do over, I would buy the Pentax compact binocs again, but I would get an 8x24
instead of 10x24.  

Regards,
alex.hoover@some.where.com
Denver, CO

The following should be treated as mail quote, not as pre-formatted

> 1      more
> 2      more
> 3      more
> 4      more
> 5      more

Back to normal again. more and more, make it a long line, not a short one. 

> 1      more and more, make it a long line, not a short one. 
> 2      more and more, make it a long line, not a short one. 
> 3      more and more, make it a long line, not a short one. 

